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Posts: 34817
04/17/08 7:17 AM
Posts: 130596
04/17/08 3:03 PM
Co-Founder/Editor Administrator
I'd love to see the warrant
The only thing that gives me a measure of comfort over this entire situation is that it was performed by the state of Texas, not the feds.
Posts: 16184
04/17/08 5:11 PM
Moderator/Assoc. Editor
Agreed! If the feds had done it there would be dead people and burning buildings.
Posts: 5819
04/17/08 5:33 PM
04/17/08 6:39 PM
R Lance wrote: ...........My concern for the 15 year old that made the call is if she suddenly disappeared into a shallow grave............. I doubt that, these people an known for their anti violent reactions. I'm wondering if she even existed.
That is just what I have been wondering for some time!
04/17/08 6:40 PM
I'm wondering if she even existed.
If the feds had done it there would be dead people and burning buildings.
04/17/08 8:25 PM
04/17/08 8:57 PM
SAN ANGELO, Texas (AP) - A court hearing to decide the fate of the 416 children swept up in a raid on a West Texas polygamist sect descended into farce Thursday, with hundreds of lawyers in two packed buildings shouting objections and the judge struggling to maintain order.
The case - clearly one of the biggest, most convoluted child-custody hearings in U.S. history - presented an extraordinary spectacle: big-city lawyers in suits and mothers in 19th-century, pioneer-style dresses, all packed into a courtroom and a nearby auditorium connected by video.
At issue was an attempt by the state of Texas to strip the parents of custody and place the children in foster homes because of evidence they were being physically and sexually abused by the Fundamentalist Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, a renegade Mormon splinter group suspected of forcing underage girls into marriage with older men.
As many feared, the proceedings turned into something of a circus - and a painfully slow one. By late afternoon only two witnesses had testified, and both only to lay the foundation for documents to be admitted. One witness, a state trooper, was cross-examined by dozens of attorneys, each of them asking the same question on behalf of a child or parent.
As the afternoon dragged on, no decisions had been made on the fate of any of the youngsters.
Additional details on life at the ranch began to emerge as child welfare investigator Angie Voss testified.
She said that if one of the men fell out of favor with the FLDS, his wives and children would be reassigned to other men. The children would then identify the new man as their father. Voss said that contributed to the problem of identifying children's family links and their ages.
Texas District Judge Barbara Walther struggled to keep order as she faced 100 lawyers in her 80-year-old Tom Green County courtroom and several hundred more participating over a grainy video feed from an ornate City Hall auditorium two blocks away. The hearing disintegrated quickly into a barrage of shouted objections and attempts to file motions, with lawyers for the children objecting to objections made by the parents' attorneys. When the judge sustained an objection to the prolonged questioning of the state trooper, the lawyers cheered.
Upon another objection about the proper admission of medical records of the children, the judge threw up her hands.
"I assume most of you want to make the same objection. Can I have a universal, 'Yes, Judge'?" she said.
In both buildings, the hundreds of lawyers stood and responded in unison: "Yes, Judge."
But she added to the chaos as well. Walther refused to put medical records and other evidence in electronic form, which could be e-mailed among the lawyers, because it contained personal information. A courier had to run from the courthouse to the auditorium delivering one document at a time.
"We're going to handle this the best we can, one client at a time," Walther said.
Little evidence had been admitted by midafternoon. The first attempt to admit evidence resulted in an hourlong recess while all the lawyers examined it. The rest of the morning was spent in arguments about whether to admit the medical records of three girls, two 17-year-olds and one 18-year-old.
Department of Public Safety Sgt. Danny Crawford testified to DPS's discovery of a church bishop's records taken from a safe at the ranch that listed about 38 families, some of them polygamous and some that included wives 16 or 17 years old. But under repeated cross-examination, Crawford acknowledged the records contained no evidence of sexual abuse.
The sect came to West Texas in 2003, relocating some members from the church's traditional home along the Utah-Arizona state line. Its prophet and spiritual leader, Warren Jeffs, is in prison for forcing an underage girl into marriage in Utah. Voss testified that through their interviews with girls at the ranch, investigators believed there was a pattern of underage girls given in marriage to older men.
Voss said that if the prophet told the girl to marry or to lie the girl would do as instructed.
"If the prophet told her to lie she would because the prophet received all his messages from the Heavenly Father," Voss said.
State officials asked the judge for permission to conduct genetic testing on the children and adults because of difficulty sorting out the sect's tangled family relationships and matching youngsters with their parents. The judge did not immediately rule.
Amid the shouting and chaos among the lawyers, who came from around Texas to represent the children and parents free of charge, dozens of mothers sat timidly in their long cotton dresses, long underwear even in the spring heat, and braided upswept hair. In the satellite courtroom, about 175 people strained to see and hear a large projector set up on the auditorium's stage. But the feed was blurry and barely audible.
"I'm not in a position to advocate for anything," complained Susan Hays, the appointed attorney for a 2-year-old sect member.
Outside, where TV satellite trucks lined the street in front of the courthouse's columned facade, a man who said he was an FLDS father waved a photo of himself surrounded by his four children, ranging from a baby to a child of about 9.
"Look, look, look," the father said. "These children are all smiling, we're happy."
Walther signed an emergency order nearly two weeks ago giving the state custody of the children after a 16-year-old girl called an abuse hot line claiming her husband, a 50-year-old member of the sect, beat and raped her. The girl has yet to be identified. Authorities raided their compound April 3 in the nearby town of Eldorado - a 1,700-acre ranch with a blindingly white limestone temple and log cabin-style houses - and began collecting documents and disk drives that might provide evidence of underage girls being married to adults.
The children, who are being kept in a domed coliseum in San Angelo, range in age from 6 months to 17 years. Roughly 100 of them are under 4.
FLDS members deny children were abused and say the state is persecuting them for their faith.
The judge must weigh the allegations of abuse and also decide whether it is in the children's best interest to be placed into mainstream society after they have been told all their lives that the outside world is hostile and immoral.
If the judge gives the state permanent custody of the children, the Texas child services agency will face the enormous task of finding suitable homes. It will also have to decipher brother-sister relationships so that it can try to preserve them.
Over the past two weeks, the agency has relied on volunteers to help feed the children, do their laundry and provide crafts and games for them.
Gov. Rick Perry would not say how much the case is costing the state, but said: "Does the state of Texas have the resources? Absolutely we do." Source: http://apnews.myway.com/article/20080418/D903UFP03.html
04/17/08 9:47 PM
She said that if one of the men fell out of favor with the FLDS, his wives and children would be reassigned to other men.
That they would take 400+ kids away, on the alleged abuse, of one missing 16 yr old.
04/17/08 10:48 PM
04/18/08 7:16 AM
04/18/08 11:08 AM
Posts: 173430
04/18/08 11:26 AM
Adminstrator Co-Founder Owner/Emeritus
04/18/08 11:48 AM
It is very possible the state is perpertrating a worse mistreatment of the children than was being done at the ranch.
I've seen how this system works
04/18/08 12:25 PM
Over 100 of them are under 4. How do they cope with not having their mothers nearby? I think this is a disaster in the making. It is very possible the state is perpertrating a worse mistreatment of the children than was being done at the ranch.
Posts: 12349
04/18/08 1:10 PM
04/18/08 1:48 PM
So have I, I've taken in foster children in the wee hours of the morning because of abuse. Broken arms, bruises, cigarette burns, rape victims, all children abused by their parents.
04/18/08 3:32 PM
Investigator says girls pregnant in polygamist sect Apr 18, 8:44 AM (ET) By MICHELLE ROBERTS SAN ANGELO, Texas (AP) - After hours of lawyers popping up with similar objections and questions, a custody hearing for 416 children seized from a polygamist sect finally turned to whether they were abused: A child welfare worker said some women at the sect's ranch may have had children when they were minors, some as young as 13. The testimony came late Thursday, the first day of a court hearing to determine whether the children, swept up in a raid on the ranch two weeks ago, will remain in state custody. Child welfare officials claim the children were abused or in imminent danger of abuse because the sect encourages girls younger than 18 to marry and have children. Child welfare investigator Angie Voss testified that at least five girls who are younger than 18 are pregnant or have children. Voss said some of the women identified as adults with children may be juveniles, or may have had children when they were younger than 18. Identifying children and parents has been difficult because members of the Fundamentalist Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints have given different names and ages at various times, Voss said. The state has asked that DNA be taken from all of the children and their alleged parents to help determine biological connections. The judge has not ruled on that request. The court hearing, which continues Friday morning, disintegrated into farce early Thursday, as hundreds of lawyers who descended on San Angelo for the proceedings shouted objections or queued up to cross-examine witnesses. The judge struggled to maintain order. "I've tried to impose some structure to this free-for-all," said Texas District Judge Barbara Walther. The case - one of the biggest, most convoluted child-custody hearings in U.S. history - presented an extraordinary spectacle: big-city lawyers in suits and mothers in 19th-century, pioneer-style dresses, all packed into a historic courtroom and an auditorium two blocks away that was patched into the proceedings by a grainy video feed. The state wants to keep the children in its custody, and likely move them to foster homes while officials continue investigating abuse allegations. The state must provide evidence the children were physically or sexually abused, or are in imminent danger of abuse. In 11 hours on Thursday, only three witnesses testified, including Voss. As lawyers shouted, dozens of mothers sat quietly in their long cotton dresses and braided upswept hair. They were sworn in as possible witnesses at the hearing's outset, but it was not clear when they might testify. In the satellite courtroom at City Hall, hundreds of people strained to see and hear a large projector set up on the auditorium's stage. But the feed was blurry and barely audible. "I'm not in a position to advocate for anything," complained Susan Hays, the appointed attorney for a 2-year-old sect member. No decisions were made on the fate of any of the youngsters, and more cross-examination of Voss was likely Friday. The children, most of whom are being kept in a domed coliseum in San Angelo, range in age from 6 months to 17 years. About 130 are under 4 years old, Voss said. She said she was concerned about how the children and women followed the orders of the church's prophet, identified as jailed leader Warren Jeffs. "The children reported that if the prophet heard from the Heavenly Father that they were to marry at any age, they were to do that. If the prophet said they were to lie, they were to do that," Voss said. Jeffs is currently awaiting trial in a Kingman, Ariz., jail on charges related to the promotion of underage marriages. He previously was convicted of being an accomplice to the rape of a 14-year-old wed to her cousin in a Utah case. The sect came to West Texas in 2003, relocating some members from the church's traditional home along the Utah-Arizona state line. Voss said the ranch was considered a special place, the sect's Zion. Authorities raided the 1,700-acre ranch south of here in Eldorado on April 3 and began removing children while seeking evidence of underage girls being married to adults. Walther signed an emergency order giving the state custody of the children taken from the ranch. The raid was prompted by a call from someone identifying herself as a 16-year-old girl with the sect. She claimed her husband, a 50-year-old member of the sect, beat and raped her. The girl has yet to be identified, though Voss said a girl matching her description was seen by other girls in the ranch garden four days before the raid began. --- Associated Press writer Jennifer Dobner in San Angelo contributed to this report. http://gbu.yuku.com/topic/16439 http://apnews.myway.com/article/20080418/D9049GKG0.html
Investigator says girls pregnant in polygamist sect Apr 18, 8:44 AM (ET) By MICHELLE ROBERTS
SAN ANGELO, Texas (AP) - After hours of lawyers popping up with similar objections and questions, a custody hearing for 416 children seized from a polygamist sect finally turned to whether they were abused: A child welfare worker said some women at the sect's ranch may have had children when they were minors, some as young as 13.
The testimony came late Thursday, the first day of a court hearing to determine whether the children, swept up in a raid on the ranch two weeks ago, will remain in state custody. Child welfare officials claim the children were abused or in imminent danger of abuse because the sect encourages girls younger than 18 to marry and have children.
Child welfare investigator Angie Voss testified that at least five girls who are younger than 18 are pregnant or have children. Voss said some of the women identified as adults with children may be juveniles, or may have had children when they were younger than 18.
Identifying children and parents has been difficult because members of the Fundamentalist Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints have given different names and ages at various times, Voss said. The state has asked that DNA be taken from all of the children and their alleged parents to help determine biological connections. The judge has not ruled on that request. The court hearing, which continues Friday morning, disintegrated into farce early Thursday, as hundreds of lawyers who descended on San Angelo for the proceedings shouted objections or queued up to cross-examine witnesses. The judge struggled to maintain order.
"I've tried to impose some structure to this free-for-all," said Texas District Judge Barbara Walther.
The case - one of the biggest, most convoluted child-custody hearings in U.S. history - presented an extraordinary spectacle: big-city lawyers in suits and mothers in 19th-century, pioneer-style dresses, all packed into a historic courtroom and an auditorium two blocks away that was patched into the proceedings by a grainy video feed.
The state wants to keep the children in its custody, and likely move them to foster homes while officials continue investigating abuse allegations. The state must provide evidence the children were physically or sexually abused, or are in imminent danger of abuse.
In 11 hours on Thursday, only three witnesses testified, including Voss. As lawyers shouted, dozens of mothers sat quietly in their long cotton dresses and braided upswept hair. They were sworn in as possible witnesses at the hearing's outset, but it was not clear when they might testify.
In the satellite courtroom at City Hall, hundreds of people strained to see and hear a large projector set up on the auditorium's stage. But the feed was blurry and barely audible.
No decisions were made on the fate of any of the youngsters, and more cross-examination of Voss was likely Friday.
The children, most of whom are being kept in a domed coliseum in San Angelo, range in age from 6 months to 17 years. About 130 are under 4 years old, Voss said. She said she was concerned about how the children and women followed the orders of the church's prophet, identified as jailed leader Warren Jeffs.
"The children reported that if the prophet heard from the Heavenly Father that they were to marry at any age, they were to do that. If the prophet said they were to lie, they were to do that," Voss said.
Jeffs is currently awaiting trial in a Kingman, Ariz., jail on charges related to the promotion of underage marriages. He previously was convicted of being an accomplice to the rape of a 14-year-old wed to her cousin in a Utah case.
The sect came to West Texas in 2003, relocating some members from the church's traditional home along the Utah-Arizona state line. Voss said the ranch was considered a special place, the sect's Zion.
Authorities raided the 1,700-acre ranch south of here in Eldorado on April 3 and began removing children while seeking evidence of underage girls being married to adults. Walther signed an emergency order giving the state custody of the children taken from the ranch.
The raid was prompted by a call from someone identifying herself as a 16-year-old girl with the sect. She claimed her husband, a 50-year-old member of the sect, beat and raped her.
The girl has yet to be identified, though Voss said a girl matching her description was seen by other girls in the ranch garden four days before the raid began.
---
Associated Press writer Jennifer Dobner in San Angelo contributed to this report.
Posts: 4522
04/18/08 6:46 PM
Moderator/Assoc. Editor 6,000,000 Visitor
mydyjy47 wrote: 33-year-old reportedly has history of phoning police as child in distress Things are getting more suspicious by the minute.
"Reasonable cause"???????
04/18/08 8:18 PM